Giving Ourselves Permission - Mandy Jankus
Season 1, Episode 4
Being a mom is about handing yourself a million permission slips each day. Certified mental health coach
& Daring Way Facilitator Mandy Jankus knows this full well. In this episode, we learn how Mandy launched into her calling for coaching others while healing from trauma, and how she encourages others to have vulnerable, authentic conversations in their own lives.
Content Warning: this episode addresses parent loss, birth trauma, and grief. If that doesn’t feel healthy for you, please do what’s best for you in this moment.
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Show Notes
About Mandy Jankus:
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Transcript
Mandy Jankus:
I went back to teaching at about when he was six months old and something just still felt off and I started searching for therapists. I finally found a great one and started doing some work, and she's the one who said, do you realize that you're a trauma survivor? And it was like a weight was lifted off because that was the first time I realized that nothing was wrong with me and it was very normal to still be struggling. And it was during that time that I was reading Brene Brown's book, Rising Strong and was telling her how I was putting the pieces together. This is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. I think it's impacting the way that I'm behaving in this way. And she's the one who told me that I could be certified in facilitating her research.
Amy Kugler:
This is And More with Amy Kugler. It's a show where we'll explore all of the stories about motherhood and caregiving and how they can be a driving force for change. We'll talk about the challenging and hilarious moments that we rarely say out loud, and we'll find a way forward that lifts us all up. Let's get started.
Hey everyone, it's Amy and I have been thinking a lot about how we process trauma. I know that's not the thing we think about in the morning, but let's be real. It's a part of our daily life and we've got to find a way to make forward or at least work on healing. It's convenient that we're having this conversation today because we just celebrated my daughter Evie's first birthday, and she surprised us by being three weeks early and she was a NICU baby for some time and it was whiplash. It was a roller coaster, and it's something that I'm still dealing with. I'll be honest, I'm not really equipped to process that kind of grief. I'm the right person to just suck it up and charge on through so that everyone else can feel their feelings and be okay. And I don't know about you, but I feel like there's a lot of us who do that same thing.
There's no self-care happening and I'm learning over the last year to take a few minutes just for myself to make sure that I check in with myself. And the reason I do that is because I have our guest today basically on speed dial. So I wanted to have the conversation with you and her. And so I want to welcome Mandy Jenkins to the show. Mandy, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for asking me to talk with you. I love you so much. This is our favorite conversation, even though it's not fun to have. I think we do a very good job getting in there. I do. I do. Even via text, you guys are going to be basically sitting and having a friend conversation with us today. So grab your coffee. It's going to be good.
Heads up. We are going to talk about grief, trauma, and loss. If those don't feel comfortable for you right now, I get it. Feel free to skip to the end of the episode.
So lemme tell you a little bit about Mandy. Mandy is a certified mental health coach and a daring way facilitator. She's a teacher, a mother, a trauma survivor, and uses multiple frameworks to facilitate wholehearted conversations with her students, with faculty, with organizations and individual clients or friends who text her in the middle of the night like yours, truly. She's also recently become a certified grief advocate and is very embedded in understanding how our stories of loss and grief manifest in our lives and help us find a way through. Not only that, but she lives just outside of Chicago and has two amazing kiddos and an incredible husband and a dog and a pool, and I am jealous of our life. So Mandy, I love you very much.
I'm so glad you're here.
Mandy Jankus:
Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
Amy Kugler:
Awesome. Alright, well let's start with the big picture here. I would love to hear a little bit more about your path to motherhood and how your work is really informed by that in some ways.
Mandy Jankus:
Yeah, great question. A starting update neighborhood was not linear. I think coming from the Midwest in the suburbs, a lot of my friends started having babies in our early to mid twenties, and I thought, I never, that looks fun, maybe for them, but not for me. And I went on an adventure of a lifetime and I went to Uganda for a teacher exchange program, and that is where I met my now husband, Andy. And it was when I really got to know him that I thought, wow, I could do life. I could do parenting. I want to make beautiful children who care about the world with this man.
And so after we got married, we tried and succeeded in getting pregnant, which is not necessarily an easy thing to do emotionally, physically. And I had a super amazing, simple, regular, normal pregnancy until it wasn't anymore. So path into motherhood, a little bit around, I took a couple turns to kind of figure myself out. Got very exciting there when Micah, my son, who's now nine, made his way into the world.
Amy Kugler:
I love it. And talk to me a little bit about where grief and loss becomes a part of that because that's very much, it's not just a shiny happy journey for you. It is really, well, I know this, but tell everyone else how that work kind of embeds now in your life.
Mandy Jankus:
So it did start with Micah and learning about trauma. So I was in labor for four days and ended up with an emergency C-section.
And shortly after that I hemorrhage and I was brought back into surgery. It was a very, very long road to recovery. I had a couple of blood transfusions, I had to have intravenous iron, my incision got infected. So luckily my mom came out from Chicago and her and Andy took great care of me. And then shortly after that, when my son was just two months old, they found a mass on an x-ray and we were told that here neuroblastoma, which is a form of cancer. So in about three and a half weeks we had our team at Seattle Children's Hospital and we were prepped and ready for all that would follow regarding basically a surgery to find out what stage and type treatment plans. And we've received a miracle, I think, the universe. And when they went in to get a biopsy from Micah's, they thought around his spine, what they found was that he tried to grow a third lung.
And so yeah, it was called a pulmonary sequestration and they were able to solder it off and he is a happy, healthy little boy. But as you can imagine and as you've been through in your motherhood journey as well, the first couple of months I couldn't take care of myself as a mother. I struggled to take care of my son. I almost died. I thought my son was going to die. And so it was shaky ground for a while.
Amy Kugler:
Yeah, absolutely. And in the process of with Micah out of the woods, and I'm putting air quotes around that, right, with him getting past that hurdle, where did you find yourself in those moments after that? When did it occur to you, right where you were like, I have put everything off for me to heal or process through this? Because you've been counseling, you've been helping people for a very long time. So when was it that you started using those tools and recognizing it for yourself?
Mandy Jankus:
Yeah, I needed help with that actually. I went back to teaching at about when he was six months old and something just still felt off. And again, Andy and my best friend who lives in the Midwest also were very aware and could recognize the signs of postpartum depression. And I started searching for therapists. I finally found a great one and started doing some work. And she's the one who said, do you realize that you're a trauma survivor? And I was like, no, that's for people who, and she said, people who almost die delivering their babies or people who get news that their baby has. And I just had a very, it was like a weight was lifted off because that was the first time I realized that nothing was wrong with me and it was very normal to still be struggling.
And it was during that time that I was reading Brene Brown's book, rising Strong and was telling her how I was putting the pieces together. This is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. I think it's impacting the way that I'm behaving in this way. And she's the one who told me that I could be certified in facilitating her research that is, so Micah was one year old when I went on to earn my life coach certification. I find it amazing.
Amy Kugler:
I know that everyone has their own path to what they want to do with their life and finding their purpose. But the more I talk to moms, I mean myself included, the more that purpose is really solidified within that kiddo's first year. I mean, our identity shifts in some big ways. And I mean to your credit as saying I am a trauma survivor. I mean, I think that is huge. Did you feel like you needed the permission to say that?
Mandy Jankus:
Yeah. Yeah. I have just started exploring the Enneagram, so this makes a lot more sense even now nine years later, I'm an Enneagram type two, so I am really trained unconsciously to be the helper and to make sure that I'm taking care of everybody else and that I'm needed. So it's not always a good thing. It's not like I'm like, I can help. It's like sometimes, please love me, I'll help you. So you love me. And I think that yes, the permission to accept that I was not okay and I needed help was something a therapist. So the outside source gave me, and then when I really reflect back, I mean my husband had been giving it to me. My best friend had been giving it to me, my mom had been giving it to me, and now I can stand fully in understanding how to give it to other people and help other moms recognize how important it is.
Brene talks about permission slips and it truly through the first year of motherhood, like you said, it's a series of permission slips.
Amy Kugler:
Yeah, it's not one, it's not two, it's maybe 50 a day. And that's okay. I think when we are able to see the forest through the trees, right, it's easier to look back and say, okay, I really needed this. And like you said, my husband was giving me these moments and my mother and other friends and other family. But it takes that community to really, and the echoing of it is okay in this moment to not be okay and to take care of yourself. I think that's incredibly, incredibly powerful. And I think there's a lot to say when we talk about grief. And I know that this is not your only story of grief. And so I do want to talk about that when we get back from break because the conversations around how we show up as parents and more really comes back to the hurdles that we step through with that community. So everybody hop back in right after break, we'll be back with And More, with Amy Kugler and Mandy Jankus.
Amy Kugler
Hey, it's Amy. So before we fill this spot with an incredible sponsor that we've got lined up, I wanted to come to you with a quick ask. Ann Moore with Amy Kugler is a production of Beam. It's a venture dedicated to amplifying the untold stories of motherhood and building public private partnerships along with collaborations with advocacy organizations to shift policy for moms nationally and globally. Ultimately, we're changing the narrative of motherhood one shared experience at a time. And I need your help in one of two ways. First, support Beam in our efforts through our crowdfunding campaign. You can find more about how you can help us reach our very big goal@welcometobeam.com. You can also, while you're there, share your story. We want to hear from you. Go to welcome to beam.com, that's W E L C O M E T O B E A m.com, and click on support for our crowdfunding campaign or share your story directly on the website. Onward and upward, my friends
All right, welcome back. This is And More with Amy Kugler, and I am here with Manny Jankus, my friend. You all have pulled up a cup of coffee. I hope you got your second one. We have talked a little bit about how grief and trauma kind of come up in the first part of motherhood, but I think I want to pivot just a little bit because that's not all of your story and no matter what, there's so much more to tell. So I'd love to hear from you, Mandy, what stories define you as a mom and more? Is there one that you can think of that pops at the top of your head?
Mandy Jankus:
Totally. I love the way that you frame this question and have talked about it. And I think very vividly too, when I shared with my mom that I wanted to take a path to continue my education and earn a life coaching certification, my son was one, he was so young and she was upset and she didn't understand, and she said, why are you trying to work so much?
You have a baby. And in my heart, it was like the processing that I had already done, which little did I know was so fresh had helped me grow so much as a person. I definitely was a better a communication instructor, and I felt like I was a better mom when I was connecting to that purpose. My mom worked as she would say, because she would've stayed home with me for her whole life if she could have. And as I have gotten older, I recognize that that's beautiful also. And I think the journey, the work is in making sure that we're able to take the time to recognize what our and more of motherhood looks like. For me, it was expanding my education and career and continuing on to become what, not that instructors aren't helping professionals, but what I considered to be a helping professional beyond the college classroom.
Amy Kugler:
I think there's two things I want to unpack here. I think the question I have for you is what was that? Where was that ambition and that impetus? Where was that fire that said, I'm not just a mom, right? I'm going to serve a lot of roles within that and I want to grow. Where did that come from for you?
Mandy Jankus:
Probably her growing up. I wouldn't say growing up from late high school years into early college. So I had done beauty school. I was a hairstylist for 10 years while I went through undergrad and graduate school. And she always told me how amazing it was that whenever I saw something that I wanted to do, I went after it. And she admired that so much about me. And she, at one point, we had a really intimate conversation and she said that she wished that her mother, so my grandmother, we were all very close. She said, I wish grandma would've pushed me more. And I don't think my mom pushed me as much as she just supported me. When I came to her with a crazy idea, she said, tell me more.
Amy Kugler:
Those three words I found in parenting and in life unlock so much for our kids and for ourselves. I mean, I think even if just fun fact friend, one of the things that Mandy has taught me, especially over the last few years, is if I sit here and say, this is what I'm feeling, her first response is, tell me more. And then it allows me the permission to go deeper. And I always find that fascinating about you and I always trying to do that with my kids, and that helps them too. I think it's fascinating. You and your mom were so close. So part of it was her encouragement and curiosity in that. And you said too, this was not the road that she took. So where did you find comfort in being your own person there and exploring your own ambition in ways that were different than what you saw modeled?
Mandy Jankus:
I think that's a really good question and one that I haven't think I could pick. One inspiration. I just knew that I was an only child and sometimes she said I was spoiled with love and it was in a funny way, but I was a nervous Nelly growing up. I'd always struggled with anxiety. And I think part of it was also just to really prove to myself that I could put on my big girl panties and do stuff, and I had the courage and the drive and the will to figure it out. I mean, she answered the phone a hundred times a day, but I did it. Yeah, I mean, raise your hand friends. You're the only child. Only children unite, and we're almost all anxious. No, I'm kidding. Not all of us, but I will put myself into that category too.
Amy Kugler:
So you start to explore coaching, but you've had a couple evolutions here within this new framework, right?
You are Mandy, the mom, the coach, the daughter, the wife, the community leader. For those of you who remember the Riveter, that's where Mandy and I met. And so I just remember her standing on stage and just commanding an audience talking about vision boarding and what you want to do with your life. And I was like, yes, sign up. So as you're looking at your own and more story, how has it evolved, especially over the past few years, through a series of incredibly unfortunate events that life could have never prepared me for?
Mandy Jankus:
My seemingly healthy mom was diagnosed with lung cancer in 2019, and I had just earned a tenure track teaching position at Bellevue College, which she saw and I know she was incredibly proud of. I had applied for it six years earlier and did not get it. So that was great. And it was very far away from where she lived in northwest Indiana.
And so luckily I worked with a lot of very supportive people and again, a very supportive husband. And I had to go be with my best friend and take care of her. And so for 10 months I was her caretaker. And that was messy and complicated. And included what I know now is called anticipatory grief. There definitely became a point where I knew she was going to die. And so it's kind of just a waiting, like you're watching somebody still alive but kind of wither away ahead of you and trying to stay present. And I learned a lot about what I believed is maybe the most important role or job I have as a parent, and that is to give my kids permission to feel their feelings. I had a lot of really,
Amy Kugler:
I don't mean to interrupt you, but can you underscore that one again?
Mandy Jankus:
Yeah. I want to give my kids permission to feel their feelings. I fell apart a whole lot, and some people said they coined kind of this line, you have to be strong for Micah, as if somehow losing my best friend and being upset about it was taking away my strength as a mother. And I learned very clumsily to talk to him and tell him, I'm having a hard time. My heart hurts, my belly hurts because I'm nervous about grandma's tests or I'm going to miss you so much, but I'm going to go stay with grandma for a while and I'll be back in a few weeks. And this is hard for me too, and I'm nervous about it. And just all of the emotional, the components of the grief emotions were coming up and I learned how to be vocal about them with him. I only had him at that point. Now I have a daughter, but I think it is probably one of the greatest gifts and struggled to call it a gift. But he's learning how to do that and I'm so proud of him.
Amy Kugler:
When you look back, I think well, knowing and walking with you in different points in the season of your life, I understand how challenging it can be to have those words. So I'm grateful that you shared them with us. And I'm grateful that you shared them with Micah too. I do you think that Micah would have the language to talk about loss had you not been so vulnerable about that?
Mandy Jankus:
No, and I think that's a really big problem because I think that's how our culture has been for a very long time. And I can look around now and see a lot of unprocessed grief. I mean, I know that my own mom didn't fully process the grief of her mother. We are silent and we move on, and it's not something to be silent about. To me, it reminds me a lot of what Brene Brown says about shame. Grief can't continue to grow if we put light on it and give it language. And it doesn't mean it's going to hurt any less, but we understand it and ourselves and our experiences and each other more, we understand it more.
Amy Kugler:
I am so sorry you had to walk through that season, and I say that because it's not anything I'd wish on anyone. And I'm so glad that Micah has that language and that you're continuing to foster that language and it's a part of your story. I mean, it's definitely a part of your story of all of this. And more so I think about Micah and I think about Zoe, who they both are adorable. But I am curious how in this season, right as you're, you're still fresh from your mom's passing and working through all of the things that come with back to school and big feelings and emotions and everything. How are you using these tools to write stories with your kids moving forward and showing where you come from as a empathetic mom?
Mandy Jankus:
Yeah, I'm going to take that literally and as a question, and we have a table in our living room that has a picture of her as well as her ashes into a blown glass. And we have always taught Micah, we could talk to grandma, she can hear us. She's always with us. And even though Zoe is just two and a half, it's been incredible because we will say, oh, grandma would really like this dinner. Hi grandma. Or when we see a hummingbird outside the window right there in the kitchen, we say, oh, grandma's coming to say hi. And Zoe actually will walk over and kiss her picture and touch her ashes. And so we've really incorporated her into our world by speaking about her. We have had a couple of really difficult moments. Zoe has recently started asking, she knows how to FaceTime. We FaceTime people for her, and she talks, she's very adamant she wants to see Grandma on the phone. And that was very triggering. And again, I started from scratch and I cried and I looked at her and I said, I'm sad that you can't see Grandma's face on the phone right now, but I want to hold this picture with you and I want to talk to her with you.
Amy Kugler:
And it's okay to feel sad because we miss her and we wish she was here the way that you're caring for yourself. And we didn't even really dig into how we care for ourselves in this moment. So I guess I'm going to have to have you back a few times. Oh, darn. But I am so, so in awe of how you hold both that, again, that joy and that heartbreak all in one and how at the end of the day, it's about really talking about the hard things. Because unless we don't talk about them, we don't move through them. And I'm so, so grateful to have you here today to share a little bit more about that. And I just would love to make sure that people can reach out to you when they have lots and lots of questions or want to learn more. So where can people find you, Mandy?
Mandy Jankus:
Yeah. I am at Kindred Coaching on Instagram, mandy@kindredandbrave.com is my email and Kindred Coaching is my website. Awesome. And we're going to leave all of this obviously in the show notes, but Mandy, as always, I am so grateful, so thank you. I'm grateful for you. Thank you.
Amy Kugler:
I love my time with Mandy. What you didn't see is that we had a full conversation after we recorded about Taylor Swift and parenting and perimenopause, and I'm going to try to bring you some of those conversations in the future or maybe mini episodes or maybe even on Instagram at Beam, the number four moms, but I wanted to share my takeaways. First, we all process grief differently that the most important part is that we talk about it and we help our kids get a language for that as well. We're shaping them. We're modeling what it is, the good, the messy, all of it. We need to give them the space to do the same.
Two, even if we're very close to our parents, their journey and our journey can be two separate distinct paths.
We have to find out what lights us up, and that's okay. They don't have to be similar. They don't have to converge. They can run in parallel. And the same goes for our kids. Three, ambition is not a scary word. Four being things come in seasons, and even in the midst of the sleep deprivation and the identity shift of the first year of being a parent, new paths can be forged beyond being a mother. I've experienced that with Beam and basically working with my co-founder, Stacey Harris, to build a way to bring together the stories of moms so that we can make a difference. All of that was done with Evie on my lap, taking naps or joining the Zooms. The same with Mandy. She started really wanting to dig into coaching as she's gotten more curious, she did the Daring Way facilitation. She's now a certified grief advocate, and she's digging into Enneagram all to serve her clients more fully and more holistically. I'm so, so glad to have this conversation with her, and I'm so, so happy that you joined me with it. Until next time, friends, onward and upward.
Before I go, I'd love to hear from you have a story that we should talk about For And More, click the share your Story button on Welcome to beam.com and make sure you're signed up for our newsletter there to get all the information about upcoming events, giveaways, and more. You can also follow us on Instagram at Beam for Moms. That's b e a m, the number four M O M S. I'd love to shout from the rooftops from my team who makes this beautiful show possible. Special thanks to Stacey Harris, without whom the entirety of beam would have been just a fleeting thought. Of course, Dave Nelson, the man behind the mic, and all the production for all these things. Benny Mathers, our producer for the KK and w support and graphic Design by the Inimitable Sullivan and Sullivan Studios. And I cannot forget my Dave, Brendan, and Evie, the trio that pushes me always to be more myself. To all of Beam's founding members, we are eternally grateful. Thank you for your unwavering belief that the power of our stories can make a difference. And to you, my gorgeous listeners and guests, we love you. Thank you for trusting us with your stories and your time. It would mean the world to us if you'd follow rate or review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get these stories. And also share it with friends, the ones that want to hear it. Until next week, onward and upward, my friends. We'll see you then.
